This process is very easy to do but is causing some confusion since some guys have not seen it done yet. Once you see it done your hand will hit the forehead and you will owe me one beer! You need the following tools.

long straight edge.
Low tack masking tape
sharpie Ultra fine tip marker, the big ones put out too much ink and can soak through the tape and damage the finish



Step #1 Mount your stab, elevator control horns, elevator hinges, and Elevator servo with the control horn. Everything must be mounted up and ready to go. Use masking tape to hole elevators in trail at zero with stabs.

Step #2 we are going to project the servo horn location to the side of the fuse.

a) using masking tape and eye ball the tape in place vertically on the side of the fuse. Use the edge of the tape as your straight line.

b) Measure the depth from a fixed point to the servo connection. Not the servo arm screw but where you will connect to the servo wheel. In the photo my system is already installed to show you what it will look like.

c) transfer this depth measurement to the masking tape and I place a horizontal segment of tape to help this marker. You can use more masking tape, and a sharpie thin tip marker....Or you can play it a little loose and use the intersections of the tape as your cross hair.

Step #3 Use the straight edge to run from this side cross hair point to the elevator control horn. Make the line go directly through the elevator horn clevis hole.

Use masking tape on the side of the fuse at the rear to mark this line. I start about 10 to 12 inches ahead of the stab and go to the tail post. This insures I have the right spot covered with tape. As before you can put the tape down and then draw a sharpie line on it or use the tapes edge as your straight line. I use the tapes edge.

Step #4 is the tricky eye ball part. You need to project the servo wheel connection point onto the belly of the plane. My models have the servo mounted so that the elevator connection point is in the middle of the fuse with the servo on its side. There are lots of mounting options to get the servo on its side. Some guys use aluminum angle and cut it out for the servo on one side...The bolt the servo to the angle and then bolt the angle into the model. I use some fancy BVM aileron servo mounts.

I carry the vertical tape line around to the belly of the fuse and mark the middle of the belly location.

Then sue your straight edge to project the "V" or the angle the pushrod will have with the side of the fuse. This is where you may need a helper...Or maybe not. I eye ball from above where the intersection of the ruler and the fuse side is at the rear and I mark it with my sharpie pen.

I then use a dremel cordless tool and a small bit to make a hole in the fuse side.

NOTE: since the fuse is painted here is where you can screw up your paint. Put masking tape over every place you are going to cut. Make a small thin slot first. Then test fit.

Note#2: I no longer attach the 1/4" balsa sticks to each other. Nor do I wrap the entire length of the sticks anymore. This is overkill. I just lay the sticks with tubes attached into the fuse and span the gap.

Using a small rat tail file open the slots up to accept the pushrod inside its sleeve. This is why the teflon sleeves work good in this application is the O.D. of the sleeve is smaller. Basically if it is binding up the length of the slot needs to be enlarged.

Also you will need to file at an angle like the pushrod will be exiting to get the taper on the slot correct.

Step #5 is put a couple cross members in and glue the entire system in place. As I said I don't build a ladder like I used to. I just keep the sticks loose. I support the front so that the pushrods pass through the spot where the servo wheel hole and I also make sure the pushrods will pass next to or through the spot where the elevator horns are on each side.

I use Hysol or Aeropoxy epoxy to glue it all in. I got started using this stuff last year with Tony F and its great stuff. I don't know how I lived without it. To get the sticks attached at the rear I lube up the ends of the sticks. And then slide it in. The extra glue will back fill the hole a little and help keep this rear attachment point correctly aligned.

I then use Aeropoxy on the cross members to support the sticks in the right spot.

Once it all cures then slide you CF pushrods out of the tubes and you are basically ready to rig it.


Now for the parts and pieces.

Central Hobbies has the setup and its like $20. This includes all the ends and extra pushrod for the front "Y" connection as shown on their website. They also have the 4-40 external ends that fit over the 0.70" rods.

This kit comes with some hard plastic tubes. These tubes have a good side and a bad side. Good side they are more rigid than the teflon tubes I first started using. The plastic tubes in the kit can help keep you from wrapping too tight and pinching the CF rod inside. Also since this plastic is pretty rigid, it you don't need as much structure support inside.

Now for the plastic tubes downside. The I.D. of the tubes is not always a precision value and can vary from tube to tube. Also the CF rods 0.070" rods can have ridge lines on the sides running lengthwise. These lines can cut into the plastic sleeve and cause binding. So I recommend that you sand the pushrods a little not really to reduce their diameter but to eliminate the ridges. Its takes just rolling it in your fingers a little with some 320 grit.

The Teflon sleeves...These are available from CST at www.CSTSALES.com you want the teflon sleeves that come in the pushrod kits. You will spend about $5 for a couple of 48" long sleeves. Its $$$$ stuff. But smooth as can be. These sleeves are very easy to crush with your string wrapping. Combined with their price the hard plastic tubes are better in most cases for the average bear! If you order the stuff from CST for the sleeves make sure you get the teflon sleeves. I don't have any experience with their "bondable sleeves"

CST also has the parts to create this stuff and I started using them. The Pushrod Kits (pushrod, teflon sleeve) are now $10.35 each. And the then you need to purchase the ends. Central sells the Titanium ends (3 ends) for another few bucks. I don't know how much...but Central is Discounting this stuff to us compared to other sources. I worked with the folks at Central a couple years ago to create a kit that would work for us Pattern guys. They made is cheaper than buying all the parts, and they included everything you would need to do it. Before we were going to to different sources for the ends and fittings as well as the Pushrod kits from places like CST.

For more details check out Central's Website for more pics and instructions. As with all things techniques change slightly over time. I have gotten the system lighter and still working better than any other system I have used. As stated before. I find this system superior to dual elevator servos. There is no need to synch and keep them synch'd up. Once you do it on initial setup it stays...Even is the servo pot gets worn...the elevator servos still track together. With dual servos as the pots wear the centers and end points will change. This is a constant battle. Even in Electric models the pots will wear. But they will be much more servo pot friendly....I just like the single servo approach.

My original Pinnacle has servo mounts in the tail and originally had servos back there. I replaced the dual servos with a DEPS setup and it improved my model a bunch. Plus eliminated some maintenance for me.

For the record. I am sponsored by Central Hobbies. My relationship as well as other guys like Chip, Don and Quique help keep Central Hobbies producing products like this for pattern models that meet our needs. I stand behind the products like this that I have been involved with and help to develop. If they didn't work or I don't use them I would not endorse them.

So if you have any questions please feel free to ask. Others have different ways of doing things. I have evolved my way. This is currently the way I do it. I have installed this system in 11 airframes since fall of 1999 and have not had any problems with the system. Its fairly bullet proof. Now that I have said that bring on the guy that can break a anvil with a rubber hammer. Robby I know you're out there baby!

Troy Newman
--Team JR
--Central Hobbies
--YS Performance
--Cool Power Fuels

Great post Troy.

Personally I got the DEPS from Central and then got the etched teflon sleeves from CST to replace the ones that come with the DEPS. I'm using the ones that came with the DEPS for antenna tubes, so it's all good [8D]

I can tell you that the teflon etched tubes are more flexible than the ones that come with the kit so you have to pay extra attention to keep everything straight. They do bond just fine though, so that's a plus. And if you get them anywhere close to straight they are very slippery and don't bind. Much more forgiving than the normal stuff that comes with the DEPS.

For what it's worth (about what you paid for it I guess) I've tried the 2 servo method, pull pull, MK bellcrank, you name it...and nothing comes close to this system for price, precision and weight. What more could a pattern junkie want?

Anyway thanks for taking the time and trouble to take these pics and post this for everybody. I know myself how much of a PITA it can be to try and do something and document it at the same time ("ahh crap I meant to take a picture before I did that....")

-Mike

P.S. Since it looks like I'm going to be the new K-Factor editor, can I count on some more cool articles and how-tos?

Cool!

So I dont need to build a ladder, excellent! Just support it at the front with 1 support and glue it in good where the eixt holes are and it wont flex?... Sweet! That makes it so much easier... Sounds like I am essentially done with it! Too bad I added all of that extra weight by wrapping the entire length...


PS, if you dont mind,, check the pics in my thread and make sure it looks right if you dont mind. To me it looks good but I dont want any more mistakes, if you see a problem tell me. Im not proud, I want to get it right.. Im probably going to mount the servo tomorrow and finish it up..


Thanks Troy for a neat product.

BigNed/Mike,

Put it all together supported just at the front and the rear. Then once is all connected, tune the servo on and have a wife, kid, or buddy flex the elevators a little and look inside the fuse to make sure its not flexing the sticks. If it is...The just add another support. Its easy just some 1/4" balsa and glue on the ends and middle, slide it in and let it cure.

Done Deal!


Mike Hester, I will probbaly contribute to the KF. I have over the years and its been fun. I have been fairly busy since the NATS and frankly I have been taking a break. Its been a long hard 3 years Just trying to recharge my personal batteries I guess. I did fly in Houston at that contest on a borrowed model, and on about 2 days notice. Nothing like packing your bags and showing up with TX in hand. Nat's plane was really cool and fun to fly. Then flying a new sequence too it was a big challenge. This got my motor going again and I have been flying next years patterns for the last 2 weeks. I think that is the most fun I have had a contest in a couple of years. So I'm working on next years stuff. Not very heavy just at a simple progressive pace. I really like the Finals Pattern and need to spend time on it. I'm thinking about doing a Weblog (BLOG) on either here in RCU or on Centrals Website as I learn and get ready for the Prelim and Final patterns for Next season. This will give me a chance to share my experiences with other guys and yet help me document my progress. Don has been using RCU to help document his experiences and I enjoy reading them. Really he and I are struggling with the same issues at times. Its good to see how he deals with the pressure and gets mentally and physically prepared for the tasks at hand.

So we'll see what happens.

Good Luck with it guys.

Troy

Troy,

I put the DEPS into my Icepoint. I dont' think I'll go back to any other elevator system. I didn't buy the kit, just went to my LHS and bought carbon fiber rods and plastic antenna tubes. Very easy and rock solid!!

Nicely presented. Not as daunting as it could have been
Stuart

Troy,
What are the parts you used to connect the pull-pull cables to the servos? I assume it is some kind of 4-40 threaded piece with a hole for the cable to go through? Do you have adjustments like this at both ends?

Jim O

...........

I should have pointed out I switched subjects by specifying I was talking about the pull-pull on the rudder. Many of the fittings that I've used in the past had sharp edges that eventually cut the cable.

Jim O

Its a Tony Frakowiack thing, He convinced me to use it. I used to think that the Kevlar threads or the steel fishing line with nylon coating were good...until we got to these models with very effective rudders, and needing large travels for rolling loops and circles. Also I think my flying got a little better and I could feel when the model was not right. I have said before, having never flown a properly trimmed model its tough for a guy to know it is trimmed....Basically we get happy that this one is better than the last one and thats good enough. I learned it is not good enough! Helped a guy today with a New Supreme. I really like mine and he has one. There was a little problem with loop tracking and up and down lines. We got it about 80% and he is thrilled its the best he has ever flown. I should hand him my Supreme and then he'll be willing to go the next 15-20% with me.

The cable is SIG MFG control line cable, 0.015". Couplers are Sullivan makes a 2-56 Brass coupler that is really a brass tube that is threaded on one end. SUL512 is the part number I think. This is an (8) pack.

I then put these into the NMP 2mm DARE (Dual Axis Rod Ends) ball link things. I use MK clevis 2mm on the rudder horn side. Yes it is adjustable at 4 places..but never needs adjustment. The cable never stretches or gets loose.

What you do is the stainless steel control line cable will not solder all that well...but the brass does. So fold a tight loop or hook in the end of the control line cable...then fish it into the coupler. Place the soldering iron up at the threads of the coupler and heat. Feed solder in from the end of the tube and solder will seek the heat, and fill the coupler around the wire. I then crimp the brass coupler a couple times and heat the solder to fill the tube in the crimps and cracks. This acts to trap the hook of the stainless wire and it will not come out. Yes it is the same connection on both sides.

With this setup you don't get a spongy feeling rudder. It also allows you to run your cables tight (banjo tight) if the linkage is properly setup mechanically that is. The result is you have a great, solid feeling rudder.

I have found this to be the best change in the rudder I have ever seen. I also stick the biggest beefiest servo on the rudder. I'm running 8611's. Yes its over kill but the rudder has a very good feel and is very very solid. You also have to have a long rudder control horn. My horns are about 1.5" from the hinge line on the rudder. This gives good mechanical advantage. Some guys have the rudder horn connection point about ¼” off the surface of the rudder….This contributes to a spongy feel and eliminates mechanical advantage on the surface that needs it the most.

Then I use the largest JR servo wheel and sometimes stick a plywood, CF, or G10 extension on the wheel to get the throw I need. My Pinnacles I have the big giant Airtronics wheels. They are larger than the JR round wheels by an extra hole and the splines fit JR.

I don't exaggerate the cables are pretty tight. People have plucked them and got concerned they were too tight You could play the banjo on them...but the stainless cable doesn't give-stretch-flex...Another thing is the cable is very light weight. All the other cables I tried felt spongy or soft at neutral and would stretch over time...The Kevlar ones seemed to be humidity and temp dependant. I know Aramid fiber is not suppose to change under temps...but it seemed that if I went to a dry climate like AZ they got loose and going to a wet climate like Atlanta they got tighter. The control line cable doesn't seem to have this problem....and it doesn't seem to be effected by temps either although I thought it should be.

Troy

Troy,
Do you find that a long run of the small diameter carbon rod outside the fuse lends itself to rod flex and trim changes? Sort of like using a long run of 2-56 metal pushrods.

Fishgod,

No

Troy,
Maybe because it is pushing in a relatively straight line from the elevator clevis towards the server?

Troy, I am reluctant to use metal cables - On my Prophecy (carbon fiber fuse) I have metal pull-pull on both elevator halves and the rudder - I get occasional short signal loss (PCM system) and rarely failsafe. My suspicion is the metal cables are causing the problem. The carbon fiber may be a contribution factor. My antenna is routed down the bottom of the plane against the fuse.
What do you think ?
Thanks,
Paul

Paul,

where did you get a Carbon Fiber Prophecy? I don't know of anyone that ever produced one? The prophecy was produced by Dixie and then turned into Piedmont and now I think PAC has the molds. Unless somebody made you a special one your fuse is Fiberglass.

I would say you having else going wrong. I would look at another problem...I even run my antennas internally in the fuse inside an antenna tube.. I have flown Futaba for many years until about 99' and then switched to JR and never had any problems with either one. What radio are you using? Maybe you are having trouble on a specific Freq in your environment or maybe there is really something worng with your system. I send my radios in every single year and have them tuned up and tested. Its rare that they find anything wrong. But sometimes a weak output on the module or something like this...its gets fixed and I don't have troubles.


I have always used metal cables...and this combined with CF pushrods on the DEPS system I have never had a problem.

Troy

Troy, It definitely is a carbon fiber Prophecy, I bought it used (but never flown) by a fellow taking a break from pattern.
The problem is definitely related to the plane. Early this year I had a really bad failsafe and a bunch of lesser ones - at that time I was on 6 meters (ch 03) and was so convinced that it was a radio problem that I purchased a new 9C on 03 (I was using an 8UAP PCM on 03) - oops same problem must be interference. Nope, used the AMA scanner for 2 weeks and no interference !!! For the record I am an advanced class Radio Amateur ergo legal on 6 meters (50 Mhz)

So now I tried going to ch 53 (bought a synthized tx & rx module for the 9C --- this is getting expensive). On ch 53 the results were much better still a rare glitch but very seldom. I have checked the radio system range - all 3 receivers and transmitters are good.
The different results between ch 53 and ch 03 (6 meters) implies the problem is rf related. With all the metal pull-pull cables (6 of them), the pipe and the carbon fiber and the antenna running along the bottom of the fuse to the tail wheel --- I believe the metal pull-pull cables are a major factor.

Any thoughts ?

Thanks,
Paul

Just a thought Paul, but are you sure it's not an Entropy? Aeroslave made this plane and it is like a large Prophecy, looks just like it. I am not 100% certain, but if memory serves they did make them (or some) in carbon. I am not aware of anyone making a C/F Prophecy myself.

Troy is right though, I've run antennaes in full carbon fuses, with full length carbon pipes and tubes, heck carbon everything and never had any problems. And I've used both JR and Futaba, no issues period. You may want to examine your specific radio and see what the problem is, I'm guessing the tuning is drifting or the output of your Tx is fading.

Just a thought, worth what ya paid for it

-Mike

That long run can be reduced by the use of 5/16 CF pushrod material (I believe that's the diameter that will accept the Teflon sleeve.)

My 9" run was reduced by 3" as you can see in the picture. The 5/16 rods used here are about 4" long overall so they extend 1” into the fuse and butt up the clear Central sleeves.

Makes for a nice exit as well!

Troy,

Thanks very much for your detailed write-ups on the DEPS system, I'd like to us it in the Brio I'm building.

I followed the description you gave in this thread to determine the location of the exit holes, however to achieve a straight run with no bend inside the plane my exit holes come out about 5" in front of the leading edge of the stab and about 12.5" from the elevator control horn. Clearly this is WAY to long of a distance for the 0.07 rods.

What do you recommend? Would you suggest slightly bowing the rods/sleeves inside the fuse so they'll come out further back?

Thanks,
Keith B

Would mounting the elevator servo a little further back in the fuselage, if its possible, help? Just a thought.

This distance is fine. My Supreme's hat the exit 11" in front of the elevator horn connection. And my Pinnacle's have the exits about 10.5" in front of the elevator horn.

You can stiffen the 0.070" pushrods by gluing a short length of Central Hobbies 1/8" pushrod tube over the top of the 0.070 rods. I actually use these 1/8 inch pushrods with 2mm fittings on the end for the clevis. I started doing that last summer. It works really well. I didn't have any of the external pushrod ends and needed to come up with something. I had some 2mm ends for the 1/8in tubes and its a perfect fit.

There is another solution to this exit location. Move your elevator control horns closer to the fuse. AND or move the elevator servo further back toward the rear of the model.

YOU DO NOT WANT ANY BEND, BOW, CURVE, or anything you might think makes the linkage better than straight. And I mean absolutely straight. NO bends.
As soon as you stick a bend in it the result will be friction regardless of the tube guides you use. They need to go straight.


Troy Newman

I'll play with the idea of the 1/8" CF tube over the 0.07" rod, I just happen to have some of that on hand. Troy, did you just use CA to glue them together or did you use epoxy or JB Weld?

Mike, I already thought about moving the servo back, but even moving it a good six or eight inches back only moves the exit hole back about 1".

Something I was kicking around in the ole nogin was using a larger 3/16" rod so I could move the branch to the 0.07 rods much further back, this would allow an exit much closer to the control horns.

Keith