Mike, are you gonna plastic film the new model or glass and paint? If glass and paint, contact me off line.

Matt

Mike, the plane looks very good....

keep the pic's incoming....

Roberto

MTK, I've seen guys use tape, and its a good idea...but I don't care much at all about the glue on my finger. After doing a skin for a wing the glue has smoothed itself out and makes a nice spatula of sorts. Then after all that glue is built up it cracks (as shown) and peels right off. What doesnt is just sanded...yes sanded...off my finger. No pain at all, I swear.

-Dave

PS: Found out on of my stab halves was bent a bit so I tore it apart and redid, mostly thanks to a friend since I didn't want to build another one. The other half's leading edge broke while I was pulling pins. It was not a good day, to say the least, but I will have two halves done tonight and goddamnitalltohellandback they'll be straighter then an arrow, lemme tell you!

Mike,

Your plane looks great!!

When will the kits be available??

Mike,

The new one looks great. Looks like you have plugs out of the way. Keep the pics coming.

-Mark

Hi Sig,

Can you explain the method you use to cover with paper?

Do you put a smooth surface (Mylar) on the paper side to get the final surface smooth?

Do you put it back in the foam blanks while curing?

Any other tips?

Regards
Attie

Thanks guys, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who appreciates these....*ahem* "wood roaches".

Well, the plugs aren't done yet. I'm finishing them now. And it'll take time, because any imperfections in these are going to be in every single one. Anybody remember the infamous crooked fin on the glass Patriots? You gotta watch that stuff, it'll bite you fast and hard. So, I'm taking my time and trying to do it right. They won't be perfect, because they are done by hand, not by a machine. But they'll do the job.

As far as kits, IF this thing flies good and doesn't have any major issues, I plan on offering a short kit. Basically the plans, composite parts, all cores and maybe some laser cut formers and hardware goodies. Not trying to get rich, but if I can pay my fuel bill in return for all this sweat, it works for me. The end cost would be about on par with the old Patriot 3D. That's the goal. I'm also thinking of a comprehensive web site with detailed instructions, pictures, tips, techniques, forum for feedback and ideas/questions, everything. I won't even play this game if I can't support it fully, that's the whole idea. Make it easy for us all, remove the secrets and voodoo.

Time frame? This one will be flying about march or april assuming no disasters. Then it depends on how much tweaking I have to do to get it like I want it. I'd hope late spring or early summer, but possibly late summer if I have to make a lot of changes. And I plan on assaulting the nats for the first time, so I'll be flying a LOT. But if all goes well, the debut will be at the Pensacola contest in early May. Windy and hellish, strong competition, some from out of country, perfect test. And a great contest, anyone within reasonable travel distance should go and fly.

Then, I'm going to make a no holds barred A-A version.

-Mike

Awesome plane Mike [8D] Can't wait to see it completed.

Attie,

Basically it's the same procedure as when sheeting with balsa. Just make sure the foam is really smooth and sand out all imperfections.
Yes I put the wing back in the offcuts with wax paper and that gives a very nice finish.

Guys, I am experimenting with a different procedure for skinning foam. This isn't for everyone of course, but this thread that Mike Hester started, has brought all the craftsmen out of the ARFie pile, so here goes:

Balsa-less skinning with a vacuum bag:
1- start with a well cut foam core and foam backing (the husk), (that preferably has the leading edge cut all the way at the correct radius) and complete all of the internal structure as you would for a balsa skinning.
2- Cut and face the ailerons with appropriate balsa at this early stage, but leave square
3- cut a set of 0.1mm mylar skins to fit the foam core exactly
4- wax the mylar inside surfaces 2 coats with a mold releasing wax, and polish with a soft cotton cloth.
5- use a good quality automotive paint such as PPG OMNI, and spray the desired pattern onto the mylar inside surfaces, and let it cure completely overnight
6- prepare 2 layers of 1.7oz Kevlar cloth, to fit the core exactly; also cut a layer of glass veil to exactly fit the wing. The leading edge and trailing edge are reinforced with a narrow strip of 5.7oz carbon cloth about 2 mm wide
7- lay the glass veil onto the painted mylar and wet it out with a slow curing epoxy. Must use extra care here to remove all bubbles. My favorite epoxy is Pro Set 125 /229.
8-Then alternately thetwo layers of kevlar, and the carbon LE and TE strips. Remove all of the excess epoxy with paper towels..
9-Paper towels will help with any trapped air.
10-Roll the sandwich with a sponge roller, to remove any bubbles. Having a flat smooth surface, like glass, to work on is a must.
11- carefully fit and lay the composite "skins" onto the foam cores. The epoxy will stick enough to make this fairly straight forward
12-insert in the vacuum bag
13- place paper towels all around the mylar, top and bottom, laying it flat, and covering every sq mm
14- seal the edges of the bag with plumbers putty or modeling clay
15- install the vacuum suction tube, and use about 3-4 in mercury vacuum. Don't really want much more than that, but see what your wing needs and adjust from there. The composite skin needs little to conform
16- place the assembly back in the husk
17- place a 1 kg weight on the foam to keep it flat and let it cure.
18- after 24 hours cure, separate the components, remove the mylar and voila! A panel that has a built in finish just like the so called "pros". The mylar is usually a mirror shine so that's what you will get.
19- after four days, the wing maybe post cured in a 125 degree oven (a insulated box with a 100 W light bulb in it connected through a thermostat)

One of these days I will take some photos and start a new thread. Technique is a little different but with practice, no reason this method couldn't produce lighter wings than present methods, and with much less work. The great thing about these skins, they will be completely dent resistant. Having seen how you folks are really interested in construction technique, and love building from scratch, you shouldn't have much problem with this.

In addition, there's no reason at all not to modify the technique a little and build wings with composite balsa skins that are totally finished, out of the mold. Not as dent resistant, but a step forward in lightness and finish

Regards,

MattK

Neat Matt!
Thanks for sharing. One question: since you paint the 'inside' of the mylar and that is the surface that will be adhered to the innner wing structure; have you had any delamination problems of the mylar from the wing? Also, does each mylar sheet wrap half way around the leading edge (I'm not clear on that part of the procedure)? -Oops, that's 2 questions. Well, one more: how much for a vacuum bagging set-up?
-Will B.

FlyWilly, the mylar is not part of the structure. It comes off after the epoxy cures. It serves only to impart a mirror shine to the paint.

The paint comes off onto the epoxy and glass veil overlayment. Kevlar/carbon strip layers are actually adhered directly onto the foam.

From the inside out, think of the composite sandwich this way: foam core, 2 med light kevlar layers, weave hiding 0.3oz glass veil layer (or 0.6oz glass cloth) and paint. The Mylar has been waxed and comes off easily.

On the LE, apply a layer of 2.6oz carbon cloth around it first, and then carefully butt the top and bottom skins at the LE, leaving as minimal a gap as you can, completely overlapping the first carbon layer. At the TE, it's best to be about 1/8"undersized with the kevlar skins and 1/8" oversized with the carbon underlayment. The top and bottom carbon layers will adhere together, but will be easy to sand to final size. Kevlar is not as easy to sand so it needs to be undersized slightly.

As you try the technique, you wil find alternates that work better for you.

A vacuum set-up is not terribly expensive. I purchased mine from Aircraft Spruce but many companies offer these. Look up Pro Set or West Systems epoxy on the Internet. The only thingS you should get in the kit is the pump, valve, gauge, .010" MYLAR, WAX, and bag. Don't get the other stuff they sell you, especially the breather and bag sealer material. Paper towels work much much better in this application, as breather stock, and plumber's putty is a better sealer because it allows re-usability of everything, including itself. Good luck with your experiments

Thanks Matt,
I've read about vacuum bagging several times over the past 10 years or so, just haven't wanted to change the 'old fashioned way' of sheeting since I've always had good luck with it. Your approach looks really intriguing. I assume you have to paint the mirror image of the actual design scheme on the mylar.
I look for pictures of your efforts in the K-Factor or maybe you could post some here.
Thanks and Happy Flying,
Will B.

Has anyone used the "G-10" fiberglass sheeting to sheet a foam wing? I've seen the stuff for sale in RC Report. You would have a ready to prime surface all in one shot. . .

Mike, Are you going to make available the fiberglass pieces and formers?
Tom
excuse me if you answered this somewhere else I didn't go back and look

Tom, the sorta kinda plan is to offer the plans, glass parts, cores and maybe laser cut formers/ply pieces etc. Basically a short kit. And make sure I have plenty of parts for support, and make a web site with comprehensive building pics/instructions and a feedback forum. If I can do all of that and keep the price reasonable, then that's what I'll do.

Right now the only thing standing between me and a test flight is making these molds for the glass parts. So far so good. Then after I fly it, I'll tweak it and put lots of time on it and change what needs to be changed. Then I'll redo the plans and start making parts and whatnot. That's the idea, we'll see how it goes. Hopefully by summer time.

-Mike

OK cool, I think it will fly like you want it to. My next 2 meter plane is going to be built and definitely not an ARF. My little ARF experiment is going to be my last.

Hi Everyone

Can anyone describe or show me a picture of there wing jig and describe how they built it, David was really nice and gave me a detailed explanation, but I didnt comprehend it exactly, I do appreciate it very much david. I would love someone just to post a picture of these. They say a picture says a thousand words. Thanks for all the help from everyone I appreciate it very much and hopefully I have something to contribute back one day that will help someone else.

Thanks

Troy

[email protected]

Troy: Here's a link to page 3 of the "2 meter plans" thread. Near the bottom of the page is a photo of the jig. Under that is another post showing the jig in use. I tried to copy and paste the photo here, but couldn't.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_41..._3/key_/tm.htm

Bokuda, How do you cut those formers that well? That is some good work. I wish I had the ability to do that or to buy a set.

You can use 3M contact cement or the like. You cut the former templates from the plans and use the cement (lightly!) tack the cut out pieces of paper to a sheet of whatever-sized balsa you need. I went to Staples and had a few copies of the plans made. One to put aside and re-copy when I'm ready to build another one, one set to use as a buliding copy, and one to cut apart and use as templates. You really only need two sets because all the templates are put off to the side in the plans. Cut out the templates and glue them to wood, then cut just about up to the line with a scroll saw, then sand to the line with a hobby sander. The final touches can be done with a hand sander. When you're ready to put things in place it really helps because all the pieces are labeled by the paper. But heres where the LIGHT spray of contact cement comes in: pull the paper off before building Hope that helps.

Oh, you can get the spray on contact cement from any place like Staples.

-Dave

tph1: If you mean the fuse formers, I purchased those, which were laser cut, from Gerald Williams. I don't think they are available any more. Gerald, unfortunately, seems to have disappeared. The ribs were cut as newbieT describes above. It probably was not worth the cost to buy the formers as the method newbieT describes works so well.

He and I are building a T2K and a Tempest respectively (pretty much the same fuse) and used the the laser cut former sheets, which I saved, as paterns for the fuse formers and the cut-and-paste method for the ribs. Be sure to go light on the contact cement or the paper is difficult to remove.

Dave

That's cool you guys are building a T2k and a Tempest. It'll be interesting to see how much different they are, and how alike they are in other areas. I'm really looking forward to some feedback. I know the Tempest isn't perfect, no plane is. But it's definitely competetive and agile. That fuse simply limits a few things. When you fix one thing, something else suffers a little.

I can say this about the Tempest, after darn near 1000 flights. When it's on, it's awesome. If you're off with it in just the right wind conditions, you'll have your hands full. But them most planes are like that. They have some things they do well and some not quite so good.

The snapping capability of this plane is awesome. It snaps and spins better than any plane I have ever flown, very precision and contollable. It's very stable inverted. It's very sensitive to rudder input, and all of the control throws are tamed on regular box flying, only cranked up for snaps and spins. It lands very easy for a pattern plane. It tracks well in 90% of wind conditions, and the other 10% you simply have to lead the rudder a little more than with other planes.

Which leads me to things I don't like, and couldn't really change with it. It's taken me a LOT of flying to find any real weaknesses, but here they are, in my opinion.

In certain wind conditions, especially turbulent crosswinds, it's a lot of work to keep the wings level. I believe this to be an effect of the radical taper. This is the trade off for doing other things so well. Stay on top of it and it's not an issue.

What little mix it needs is strange. While it pitches a bit noticably in down lines and somewhat on flat lines, it doesn't pitch much at all in knife edge. We're only talking 3-4% here, but it's noticable and if you want PERFECT, you'll need to get a little creative. The truth is it's very easy to just fly and ignore, it doesn't pitch nearly as hard as practically anything else I've ever flown. Again I think it's a trade off for the radical taper.

Since snaps and spins are such high K manuevers, and especially at advanced and above, I prefer the snapping capabilities and the smal touch of odd habit the taper displays. I took a little of it out on my new plane because I think it's on the very edge. Some people it may drive crazy, I guess. So far everyone that has flown it has loved it and marveled at how easy it does a lot of things. It's definitely a better plane than the T2K for the upper classes, no doubt. In sportsman, I'd prefer the T2K. Maybe intermediate too. But advanced and above, definitely the Tempest if I had to choose between the 2. Just fly advanced or masters in a high wind with both, then you tell me [8D]

I still love it, and won't get rid of mine. It's been the best plane I've ever had, hands down.

-Mike

Mike,
Mine should be ready next week :-)

Well then, I'll expect pics and a full flight report!!! [8D]

-Mike