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SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Old 11-27-2010, 06:18 PM
  #1401  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I think the WistModel Prestige and Bravo are a pair.
The Prestige will be a tight fit, but it will go if you are determined enough. As long as you order the airplane with the mounting dimensions all figured out, they can put the firewall in the right location. You need to have it exactly right before you ever see it, so you must get the engine dimensions and mount dimensions figured out and give them a drawing.

The main issue with getting a Prestige is that there is usually a fairly long lead time for orders from Wistmodel. Check with Ken Velez though. PM me if you want his contact info.

As Matt said, the Bravo is electric only. With a bunch of elbow grease, you could convert it, but I wouldn't go there. Check out the Pentathalon by Mark Hunt. A real builders kit from what I have heard.

The easiest thing to do though, is grab a Focus II or an Aquila. Last I heard there were still Aquila's available. If you want something better, a CA Integral would work, as would a ZN Line Xigris. Check with F3A Unlimited for the Xigris. Chris Moon can probably suggest other alternatives as well.
Old 11-28-2010, 07:47 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I have seen Walt Erickson's Aquila set up with a SAP and the stock muffler.

Surprisingly good combination! He is using stock components and also an ignition battery and switch instead of the IBEC, so his model is a bit heavy on the wing loading, but it still flies great and makes weight easily because it is not a full 2-meter ship. I think the wingspan is around 70 inches and weight is probably about 9-3/4 lb.

Very little, if any, cutting of the cowl to accommodate the Pitts muffler, and noise level is very well controlled with the muffler "tone inserts", as Syssa refers to them, with very little loss of power.
Old 11-28-2010, 10:52 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

No luck finding the Aquila. I am looking for an ARF as I just don't have the time to build and cost is the biggest factor. I think I found something that may work for me. It is the Fortuna, sold by Texas RC planes. Their isn't much for threads on this bird. But, some have run this with gas engines on a pipe. At 350 dollars I should be able to swing it before spring.
Check it out and tell me what you think.

http://texasrcplanes.com/forcpaai.html



Old 11-28-2010, 11:08 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Found it.
http://www.shop.creativelaserarts.co...RC-AQUILA.htm#
Old 01-27-2011, 07:00 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Hello....Hello.... anybody out there?
Old 01-27-2011, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

We were waiting for some progress reports on your Aquila.[8D]
Old 01-27-2011, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: tele1974

Hello....Hello.... anybody out there?
We are all still around, just snowed in.

I had to add cooling baffles to the chin cowling of Aesthesis to keep the engine cool. These were simple 1/32" light balsa, super glued in. I left about 3/16" space around the cylinder and that seems just about the right amount of opening to keep air turbulent around the cylinder (Maximizes heat removal). I should have a snap in my camera. If they fixed the website and it lets me, I may post it tomorrow.
Old 03-23-2011, 07:25 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I started thinking about the induction noise again. I just can't let go of it for some reason. I spent a night thinking and doing some research in the pocket bike forums. Then I stumble on some pictures of a Titan Z set up. I had started with a similar setup attempting still use the choke and didn't find a way to make it work. I lined the motor box with sound deading acoustic foam but the firewall of the motor box was wide open. This time I am going to use the velocity stack with the built in choke that the pocket bike guys use.

I had an extra fuse that was shipping damaged that I decided to repair because the one that they sent me to replace it had nasty warpage in the vertical stabilizer. I had cut the fire wall off the damaged it on on the new fuse to mount the Syssa. Motor box on the original fuse was then shorter and turns out after installing a new firewall I got the backplate to firewall distance the right length for the velocity stack to extend into the motor box still leaving the choke arm anterior to the firewall. Iwill post some pictures as soon as get new motor mounts from Todd.
He is just using the motor box as the induction silencer just like Ihad originally attempted. Ijust need to figure out where my intake holes are going to be. I may extend the velocity stack further into the box with some hose of some sort also.

Here is the web site. Interesting build.

www.toni-clark.com/english/motoren/zg20/zg20_funtanaS140.htm



Old 03-24-2011, 03:41 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Well at least you won't need the 90-degree elbow with the SAP. But it might be a bit trickier to get at the throttle linkage so a removable cover on the motor box might be needed. Not difficult to do in most cases.
Old 03-24-2011, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Well at least you won't need the 90-degree elbow with the SAP. But it might be a bit trickier to get at the throttle linkage so a removable cover on the motor box might be needed. Not difficult to do in most cases.
This is how I connected the throttle and choke, as i showed a few pages back http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10094284

Had a flying session last Sunday with my Temptress/SAP combo. Forgot how fast the set-up flies, at least for the first few flights of the season. We need a little less speed and more mid range grunt. In contrast, Ed's YS powered Prestige has a better flight speed versus truck pull envelope. As I stated a few times before, the SAP is a fine engine for the lower classes but doesn't help as much in the higher classes. It makes lots of raw power at higher rpm than we use. Gotta figure out how to tone the beast down.

Jim Martin was saying that we should take about 1 mm off the cylinder deck to increase compression. That will also lower exhaust duration. A couple beneficial things would happen from such a change: Compression increase will improve the mid range grunt and should allow use of higher octane gasoline like Avgas (which I prefer). Exhaust duration reduction will reduce high end rpm boost by the pipe. It sounds like exactly what we want.

I will at some point sacrifice a cylinder to see if the theory will match the practical
Old 03-25-2011, 08:24 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Matt,
That stuff might help but if you really want mid-range grunt you should see if Todd would be interested in making the long-stroke "Pattern" version that he and I talked about (briefly) when we visited the shop. THAT would be an interesting experiment...

John Pavlick
Old 03-29-2011, 06:18 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

So, Norlocks with blue locktite and  aluminum can gasket.  Did you guys uses a sealant also along with the gasket?
Old 03-29-2011, 07:31 PM
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ORIGINAL: tele1974

So, Norlocks with blue locktite and aluminum can gasket. Did you guys uses a sealant also along with the gasket?
I have never used blue loctite on exhaust bolts threads. I think a couple guys did that before we found out about how well Nordlocks work, and their bolts stayed put. Getting the bolts loose is another matter that requires heat, as I understand it

I use Nordlocks, ally can gasket and Locktite Ultra Copper silicone sealant on both sides of the gasket and inside the bolts holes. This combo has solved the loose exhaust bolt problem we experienced early on.

Planning to go to Toledo this weekend with Ed. Hopefully I'll get to chat with Todd regarding some of the ideas I've presented here-in
Old 04-06-2011, 04:02 AM
  #1414  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Did you use just the M5 Nordlocks?

Old 04-06-2011, 04:23 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Yes, with "T" nuts embedded on the back side into the graphite/epoxy firewall reinforcement. I buy alot of fasteners for my business and none of my fastener vendors have metric T nuts, but my local hardware store had them! They are thick steel and do not bend when torqued up. On the exhaust header, the Nordlocks just do not loosen until you want them to. I had to counterbore the header a little to get them to fit.
Old 04-10-2011, 05:53 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: MTK

I have never used blue loctite on exhaust bolts threads. I think a couple guys did that before we found out about how well Nordlocks work, and their bolts stayed put. Getting the bolts loose is another matter that requires heat, as I understand it

I use Nordlocks, ally can gasket and Locktite Ultra Copper silicone sealant on both sides of the gasket and inside the bolts holes. This combo has solved the loose exhaust bolt problem we experienced early on.

Planning to go to Toledo this weekend with Ed. Hopefully I'll get to chat with Todd regarding some of the ideas I've presented here-in

Guys,

It looks like we have an inexpensive solution for tubing.

I purposely left a a few ml of gasoline in the tank before putting the plane up for the Winter just to see how the tubing would hold up over the Winter months. The tank clunk line was set up with Tygothane (polyurethane formulation for gasoline and other applications), Mc Master Carr #5549K44. It's 1/8" ID x 1/32" wall and much more flexible than Viton.

I took apart the gas tank to check the PolyU tubing condition and was pleasantly surprised to find the tubing as supple and as strong as new tubing. This material is inexpensive at around 30 cents a foot. It is clear although colors may be available. Ideally, black tubing in the same formulation would be perfect

I will continue the experiment with the same piece of clunk line this flying season and see if it still holds up by the end of the season

Old 04-11-2011, 03:42 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Matt,

Thanks for the update on this stuff.

This is good news for ALL gasser applications!

I ordered some a few minutes ago. Probably be on the doorstep tomorrow when I get home.

Bob
Old 04-11-2011, 05:15 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


I am finished with my induction noise silencing airbox/ motor box. It is lined with acoustic foam. The airbox has a cover on it that is removable. I will post of video with the motor running with the cover on and off. I ran the same foam around the velocity stack/ choke. I am going to just remove it. Their is a 3/16 gap around the entire velocity stack which I believe is going to be enough area for air intake instead of drilling holes in the motor box and leaving the foam around the stack.

Motor is mounted and the pipe is installed as per your recommendations. Copper RTV, Nordlocks, and Alum gasket. Last year I just used the black RTV and I have some leakage. But that may have been as result of the header bolts loosening.
I did counter bore the the 5m holes on the header. I just used a metal bit. I would have preferred to get the counter bore flat at the bottom instead of angle of the bit.

Tuning:
I know their is plenty of information about walbro tuning on the internet. But, I was wondering if you guys would give your techniques for the Syssa and how you meet the low and high needle in the middle per se'. That might be a good addition to the recipe.
Old 04-14-2011, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: tele1974


Tuning:
I know their is plenty of information about walbro tuning on the internet. But, I was wondering if you guys would give your techniques for the Syssa and how you meet the low and high needle in the middle per se'. That might be a good addition to the recipe.
Well, as it comes set up from the factory, the carb will work okay for small props on muffler. That is the intended purpose of the engine after all...a great little sport engine.

The first thing to do if you run a pipe is to richen the HS needle to 2 1/16 open; LS speed needle open to 1 1/4 or just a hair more.

After full break in, HS needle seems happiest at exactly 2 turns open and LS needle at 1 3/16 open or very slightly leaner. It's working great at these settings. I have two SAPs and they are set-up practically identically, on pipe....except one is turning a 17x12 APC and the other a 16x12 APC. Both run fine at these carb settings

Almost forgot to mention that the engine has got to have lots of cooling air velocity around the head. I had to baffle the chin cowl of my new plane leaving about 3/16" air gap around te head. Before baffling the engine tended to sag on extended vertical stuff, loaded with the 16x12. After baffling, it ran super in the hottest days last Summer
Old 04-29-2011, 05:58 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Motor box air induction silencer. Seems to have quieted the reed noise some.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_w97ApBphU[/youtube]

What do you think?

Old 04-29-2011, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Makes quite a difference. I never would have believed it without the video.
Old 05-05-2011, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I am interested in learning how to set up a throttle curve.  Both of my planes are very touchy from zero to quarter stick. 
I was thinking I should start by getting full throttle rpm's then curve the throttle so 50 percent stick is 50 percent rpm's and 25 percent stick is 25 percent rpm's.   Is that correct?  I don't think that power curve of gas engine is entirely linear thou.  What do the experts have to say?
Old 05-05-2011, 08:28 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I like the box Tele74. Have you flown it yet? What's the in-flight noise performance like?

I do not consider myself a gasoline engine expert. I've had issues with throttle curve choices too. The best arrangement I've found so far is sort of an S.....at low to mid stick, servo output is relatively slight. Mid to high stick, servo travel is much faster.

I think walbro carbs with their butterfly throttle valve let in a lot of air quickly. The SAP has a fairly large carb throat and that tends to make response less linear. By comparison, the throat diameter of the SAP is at least as large as that of the ZDZ40 cc I've been playing with lately.

BTW- I am not very happy with the ZDZ's performance. Nowhere near the output of the SAP but the engine is new and very tight still. I may change my opinion after a couple gallons, but I'll tell ya, the SAP has spoiled me due it's simple and easy field manners
Old 05-06-2011, 04:14 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: tele1974

I am interested in learning how to set up a throttle curve. Both of my planes are very touchy from zero to quarter stick.
I was thinking I should start by getting full throttle rpm's then curve the throttle so 50 percent stick is 50 percent rpm's and 25 percent stick is 25 percent rpm's. Is that correct? I don't think that power curve of gas engine is entirely linear thou. What do the experts have to say?
Which transmitter? Throttle curve available? Simple expo likely won't do the trick.

No power system is linear. I recently tweaked and am still not quite there with an electric set-up, and gas also required a pretty substantial throttle curve.

I saw your post on the other thread, so you're moving in the right direction... rpm vs thrust discussion.

I am nobody's expert, but I am leaning toward a throttle curve for calm and windy days, with "cruise" speed at mid stick. And maybe allso adjusting rates and expo as well. So easy with the radios to copy models and season to taste!
Old 05-06-2011, 06:08 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I am using the JR9303... I would like to convert it to the FrSky module system. I lost a plane last week due to a lock out. Frustrating, I just finished recovering that bird... the covering was still warm. FrSky uses the whole frequency range instead of just part of it. Sorry had to vent.

Okay...I will find a cruise speed that I like then attempt to dial down the bump in power I am getting between 0 and 1/8 throttle. If I need a little more power on final approach it bursts up. Its probably my linkage contributing. My MT 35 has a nasty bump off of idle and it makes landing interesting. I usually idle in and then attempt to slowly increase throttle just before touch down. No pavement at our field.

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